The Whisper That Wouldn't Quit: A Career Reawakening

After 15 years in a role that felt like home, Debra Worth—former coworker and quiet powerhouse—joins us to share the story of her unexpected career pivot. For years, she was content. The job was familiar, the team was solid, and the rhythm of her work life was steady. But beneath the surface, subtle whispers of change began to stir. In this episode, Debra opens up about the tension between growth and complacency, the internal nudges she tried to ignore, and the moment she finally chose to listen. It’s a raw, honest look at what happens when comfort becomes a cage—and how stepping out can lead to something even better.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:02

Hello, welcome to the Fitzen Project. I am here with one of my dearest coworkers who quickly became a friend of mine, Debra Wirth. I think you are one of the most fabulous people. And one of the things that I know about you is your motherhood. And I honor that so much. And I can't think of my pregnancy without you. with my own son without thinking of you and your inspiring words before I even got pregnant. Oh. And you said, good people need to have good people. And I was like, I'm never going to have kids. And you're like, of course you are. Good people need to have good people. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm a good person?

UNKNOWN: 0:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 0:51

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02: 0:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:53

And yes, you are a good person. So

SPEAKER_02: 0:56

I'll never forget that because those little words were, resonated and meant so much to me. And then you may have been the first person outside of my other circle of best friends that I've actually called and told. And I remember like crying. Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16

Isn't that amazing how one small, almost obviously not insignificant, but at the time it was just like a passing comment and it just landed like an explosion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30

right

SPEAKER_00: 1:31

that's amazing that's amazing

SPEAKER_02: 1:33

yeah i just looked up to you and everything and i think also one time i'd said um to you in a joking way i was like okay mom because we were working together and you're like i am not old enough to be your mother i'm like oh shit you're not i'm like i will not call you mom again and that was like uh by corporate don't tell me to hr That's how that was. I wonder if you remember that one.

SPEAKER_00: 2:04

I don't, but that does not seem out of the realm of possibility.

SPEAKER_02: 2:08

I am not old enough to be your mother. I'm like, oh, God, set me back. And you're not.

SPEAKER_00: 2:16

I am not. It might be close, but not quite. I mean,

SPEAKER_02: 2:21

so my friend with this podcast, we are in the business of ourselves and I love marrying yoga, meditation, somatic work in the body with project management because we're all our own projects here in the business of ourselves.

SPEAKER_00: 2:41

Yeah. I love that perspective.

SPEAKER_02: 2:43

Yeah. I didn't know I liked being a project manager until I started working on myself. Be honest.

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

Interesting. Yeah, I think I'm a more fun project than any of my, you know, paid projects.

SPEAKER_02: 2:57

And that's the truth. Louder for the people in the back. So with this, I want to hear a story from you. And the first one that's come into mind, that's come to your mind, not my mind, on what is... What is it for you to be in the business of yourself? First of all, like, what does that even mean for you?

SPEAKER_00: 3:23

Yeah, that was, that's kind of a really broad topic, right? I mean, we talked about doing this and you gave me the topic and I'm like, what does that even mean? And it's tumbling around in my head and it starts to dawn on me that that business of being yourself, it the business of being in yourself is really listening and giving power to that little voice in your head. And sometimes you hear it and it's just a whisper and you just ignore it. And then later you have the insight of 2020, right? The, what is it? Foresight is 20 or...

SPEAKER_02: 4:00

Yeah, hindsight is 2020. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 4:02

hindsight is 2020. First I thought we were talking about the year and I was

SPEAKER_02: 4:04

like, what about the year? No,

SPEAKER_00: 4:05

hindsight is 2020 and you regret not... listening to that tiny little whisper. And other times it's just so obvious that you have to listen to that voice inside of you and pay homage to it and give it power. So really life is just a series of making those choices to listen to yourself and do what's best for you. Your intuition always knows what's best, right? It's just whether or not you choose to pay attention to it.

SPEAKER_02: 4:35

Yep.

UNKNOWN: 4:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 4:36

Seems like here lately, every podcast I've been, the first three minutes is like the power move. And then I'm like, I don't need any, I don't need to say anything. So we're done now. And I'm serious like every single time. Like, so you get it. All right. We have nothing left to say.

SPEAKER_00: 4:53

Okay. All done. Bye-bye. I mean, I can talk about some, some. times that it was very clear in my life, right? So I'd worked at a hospital system for going on 15 years, I guess. And I was doing the same thing. And I had a manager who had me really pigeonholed. She saw me as only one thing. And I can do a lot of things, right? But there are always people out there that are going to be better than me that I can learn from, but I'm pretty good at what I do. And I have a lot of things that I can do well. And it was just listening to that. I am not old enough to sit in this job and coast to retirement. I do not want to do this for the next 20 years. I mean, I could. I could just sit here and make myself crazy with boredom. Or I could go look for something. And I mean, that's a pretty loud scream, right? And it's pretty... I mean, I feel like that's something that, that everybody goes through. You get to the point where the job is doesn't fit you anymore, but you have to recognize that in yourself and you have to understand what you're missing in your job to know what to look for. So, and that is when I went to another healthcare system and that is where we met.

SPEAKER_02: 6:18

Yes, that's right. I remember, um, because we started around the same time and I think we both left some, um, jobs that just like

SPEAKER_01: 6:29

weren't serving us anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 6:30

They didn't serve us anymore. And it's like a relationship with people, you know, if it's not, and if it's not lifting you up and building you up, then it's bringing you down, you know, or keeping you the same, which why would you want to stay the same? Yeah. Like you said, you weren't old enough to coast to retirement. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:54

I had so much more to do.

SPEAKER_02: 6:55

I

SPEAKER_00: 6:56

had so much more to do and learn than to stay there and languish in an atmosphere where there was no challenge. There was nothing new. There was, oh yeah, you're great at what you do. Just keep doing it. Okay. Right. Why don't you give me something to do that's going to challenge me a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_02: 7:16

I'm coaching a girl right now and she's one of my favorite people that I've gotten to coach and she is working on how to be in the business of herself and it's like you need to understand that clarity which I think you said in not so many words of what it is that you do deserve and what you are going to call in and what it is that you need to

SPEAKER_00: 7:44

grow right

SPEAKER_02: 7:45

and

SPEAKER_00: 7:46

Yeah. And in that, that specific instance, there was nothing, there was nothing new. There was nothing challenging. There was no growth opportunity. There was no way for me to prove to myself that I could do more and be more.

SPEAKER_02: 8:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 8:03

So it was time to go. I

SPEAKER_02: 8:04

think humans need that.

SPEAKER_00: 8:06

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 8:08

That's a, that's an human thing is evolve. Yeah. and develop and grow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:15

You know? Yeah. You're learning until the day you're not breathing anymore.

SPEAKER_02: 8:21

Yep. Yeah. You can even take that down to a cellular level. Think about it. Like our bodies start as this tiny little cell, this tiny little miracle thing. And all it does is continue to regenerate and grow and grow and grow and grow. And then all of a sudden, all of these cells are with their programs turn into this baby. And then from the baby, you grow into all of the stages of life and you evolve with the stages of life in your environment. Why would you not want that for your career where you spend 40 hours a week?

SPEAKER_00: 9:00

Right, right. You spend more hours in your career than you do in your personal life. And why would you, that's 100% right. Why would you not want that?

SPEAKER_02: 9:10

Yeah. I mean, your human design is literally to do that. Yeah. You're like, you got to collapse the timeframes here. You got to meet yourself with your actual self so you can move on. So anyway, I could talk analogies all day. How many were you at? So with you specifically, um, How did that feel for you when you came to that realization and how long did that take for you to jump?

SPEAKER_00: 9:43

Scary AF. It was really scary. Like I can't stay here anymore, but I am, it's really comfortable here. Right. I know that I'm as safe as anybody is in a work environment here. I'm not. So it was scary. New things are changing and new things are scary and they're hard. How long did it take me to, I probably worked up to it for a good six months before I actually started looking for something else. And, you know, it's every job move that I've made has apparently been kismet or something because coming to that original healthcare job that I had, I was, it was, okay, I'm going to age myself a little bit here, but I was looking through the help ads in the newspaper. You're good. Do I

SPEAKER_02: 10:36

remember? Not really, but it's okay if you do.

SPEAKER_00: 10:51

So I'm reading this ad in the newspaper and I'm like, I could do that. I could do that. I can do that. Well, I can't do that, but I can learn that. And so I applied for that job and they had been looking for months and I interviewed for that job and I got it. And then when I was, you know, almost 15 years later, ready to leave that job, I started trolling around in, I think it was LinkedIn jobs or Indeed or one of the job boards. And I came across the one where we came together, trying not to name companies here. So, and I'm reading it and I'm like, you can do that. Do that now. I have all the, I have everything I need to do this job. So I applied for it. And I did. I didn't hear anything back from it at first. And then the recruiter called. And here's the scary part is it was a contract job. I had never in my life gone contract. Like, oh my gosh, I just had nightmares about what it was going to be to be a contractor. And then they sent in our good friend, Michelle, to close the deal and I couldn't not take the job.

SPEAKER_02: 11:57

Yeah. And she like loved you from Jump Street. As a matter of fact, she loved you and me the most. No, I'm just kidding. I guess I'm going to say that to everybody because like my grandma was like, yeah, I'm totally her favorite, but also my other cousins were too.

SPEAKER_00: 12:12

Yeah, in a different way, right? I mean, my daughter is my favorite daughter. My son is my favorite son. Oh,

SPEAKER_02: 12:19

the amount of times my mother told me that growing up. I'm like, but I'm your only one. I want to be never one. She's like, you are.

SPEAKER_00: 12:27

Oh,

SPEAKER_02: 12:31

yeah. So when you went into that, it was an involvement from... job search, not only, but also like, let's go with what was going on with you in a personal life. Cause if I'm not mistaken, you were sending your kids into private school. There could have been like that financial insecurity of being scared. Yeah. Contract. Yeah. What did that feel like?

SPEAKER_00: 12:57

It was really scary. It was making a leap that I knew I needed to make and With this fear in the back of my head of, I, what if this doesn't work out? And I let my entire family down. What is that going to be like? Like, we can't do this with one salary, right? So there, there is, there's a lot of external pressures on making decisions like that, that you, and you have to weigh them. You have to, you have to weigh them and trust them. Trust that moving on to what you need is going to be better for everybody in the long run.

SPEAKER_02: 13:46

This brings up a big aha moment for me. Oh, boy. Hearing you say that because... You had said when you were applying, you saw it on LinkedIn and you're like looking the requirements up and down and you're like, oh, I can do that. I can do that. I can learn that. I already know how I think to do this X, Y, Z. And one of my... mentors dana hunter fordella she does uh girls who recover she does that whole podcast and i just met her um recently and she's one of my mentors now but her thing her formula to all of this is i wrote it down because i don't want to mess it up be do have be, do, have. And you're like, oh, I'm already this, that, and the other. And then it was just up to you to do the job. And you have it. And therefore it came, right? That's right. Then all of the benefits with it.

SPEAKER_00: 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:49

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 14:51

Isn't that everything though? I mean, it's jobs, it's friends, it's whatever you do to pass your time, whatever hobbies you have. We do have, right?

SPEAKER_02: 15:04

We do have.

SPEAKER_00: 15:06

Yeah. Be someone who wants to learn hip hop. Take a hip hop class. You now have hip hop skills.

SPEAKER_02: 15:15

There you go. You do tap.

SPEAKER_00: 15:17

I do hip hop too.

SPEAKER_02: 15:19

You do hip hop too?

SPEAKER_00: 15:22

Yes. It's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02: 15:23

And it's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00: 15:25

And it is so much fun. Although it's really spelled differently for me. It's hip hop. hop because that sucker's gonna pop out of its socket one of these days

SPEAKER_02: 15:40

that is amazing and i love that you need it i think everybody needs to have a little fun extracurricular activity oh heck yeah you know this is mine and this is like my passion project but also yoga obviously because i can't i don't know that i go a whole day without saying the word yoga and then Yeah, that's just what I love to do. It's what I love to do. But if I had a hip hop studio around me, I'd be there too. You'd

SPEAKER_01: 16:10

do it. Because

SPEAKER_02: 16:11

my dance skills, I just put those on social media the other day and I looked at them myself and I'm like, oh, could use a little tune up. But who am I? Who cares?

UNKNOWN: 16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:24

So, all right. So back to you. Yes. You get the job. You meet Michelle, who is freaking fantastic. If you haven't listened to that episode, you got

SPEAKER_01: 16:34

it. I have. I'm

SPEAKER_02: 16:35

going to have her on for a part two. I'm going to have a season to eventually bring her back and be like, so tell me more now that you're a week or more than a week into this new bug job. Which

SPEAKER_00: 16:49

we're

SPEAKER_02: 16:49

both

SPEAKER_00: 16:49

at the bug job. We're at the bug job together now. So

SPEAKER_02: 16:54

let's talk about going into this new world and what this meant for you and how that felt.

SPEAKER_00: 17:02

My new bug job? Not in the healthcare industry? No, the

SPEAKER_02: 17:05

healthcare. Let's stick

SPEAKER_00: 17:06

to healthcare. Okay, stick to healthcare. So when I moved from healthcare company one to healthcare company two. Right? That's what you're asking about. So getting there, getting the job was one thing, right? That was a relief. But getting there and trying to make sure that I understood everybody's expectations and what was needed of me and my, how, I don't know, like in some jobs you can cuss up a blue streak and some jobs you're expected to be really squared away. Right. So trying to figure out what that environment was, was difficult. And the fact that I had stayed in a job for so long, that wasn't really pushing me out of my comfort zone was very evident.

SPEAKER_01: 18:01

Like

SPEAKER_00: 18:03

there were obvious places I needed to grow, obvious emotional intelligence that I needed to acquire and business presentation skills that I needed to acquire. And not that I couldn't do the job. I just needed to raise my skill set to the next level. So it was really fulfilling. I got so much out of that job.

SPEAKER_02: 18:38

Me too.

SPEAKER_00: 18:40

I got so much out of that job, personally, professionally. It was, I loved that job. It was like the dream team, right?

SPEAKER_02: 18:50

It really was. Yeah. I would go back in a heartbeat. I need Michelle to start her own business so we can all start working for her again. Yeah. right of course same thing she is a leader for that though emotional intelligence and skill sets and presentation i've never been more grateful to have somebody teach those two things to me and really have it resonate because she not only taught it she embodied it on every level. There were times because of blue streak, but then there were times to like button up.

SPEAKER_00: 19:30

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And being in a, being in a situation where someone is meeting you where you're at.

SPEAKER_02: 19:35

Oh, she did

SPEAKER_00: 19:36

not, not only meeting you where you're at, but recognizing in you where you can go is super freeing. And that ability to feed yourself.

SPEAKER_02: 19:48

It gives me goosebumps.

SPEAKER_00: 19:50

Oh, it's true though. Right? I mean, And it's rare. It's rare to have people around you, not just in the business world, but in real life that understand who you are and where you're at, but see and nurture so much of what you can still accomplish.

SPEAKER_02: 20:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:13

To your point earlier, the human condition is to always grow. And if you don't have the right people and situations around yourself. And if you don't answer that call to put yourself in those situations, find them, seek them out, it's hard to live up to your potential or even understand that there is potential outside of what you're doing right now.

SPEAKER_02: 20:39

Right. I know a lot of people are scared of their own potential. I'm sort of kind of that way in some regard. Believe it or not, I am scared of some of what I know I can do because I'm like, am I going to fall off the cliff that I'm creating for myself? I don't know. If I do, is it going to hurt?

SPEAKER_01: 21:02

Maybe.

UNKNOWN: 21:03

Probably.

SPEAKER_02: 21:03

But if it hurts, am I going to survive? Probably. Probably. Am I going to learn something from it?

SPEAKER_00: 21:12

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02: 21:12

Am I going to be afraid to try it again? Probably not.

SPEAKER_00: 21:16

Right. Am I going to be, am I going to be afraid to try something grand like that again? Right.

SPEAKER_02: 21:21

Probably not.

SPEAKER_00: 21:22

Probably not.

SPEAKER_02: 21:23

Right. Cause like you already wrote, you wrote the roadmap now. This is really funny because you were in my first deployment, so to speak of teaching online. And you were part of my very first time of me trying to be in the business of myself. and um that was a in my opinion um i let that go because it was like a fail for me in some way shape or form i haven't identified or pinpointed it out but even now it is like a lot of different courage but ease going into this new 21 day reset from august 1st to 21st which you're joining me with i am i can't wait That's like the same kind of courage I think it takes to like get into the uncomfortable. Yes. To learn. And then if you back out, you back out and then you get back in and you're like, oh, there's going to be a new lesson now. I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_00: 22:30

I'm here to learn it. And for the record, I do not believe that first foray into online teaching was a failure. It wasn't a failure for me. Thank you. Thank you. I was, I was happy to be doing it.

SPEAKER_02: 22:45

I love that. I had, um, not had my space and I didn't feel authentic enough to do it more in my bedroom and felt right charging people. That's where I, that's where it came out for me.

SPEAKER_00: 23:00

That's, that's, that's fair.

SPEAKER_02: 23:02

Yeah. So I was like, might get my space. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it right now. 100%. So I needed to feel that in myself first. But yeah, and life. But your skill set, I got to witness that. And from a different, not... organization. We worked on different projects. We were on the same team, but different projects. But I got to witness your growth in such a short amount of time was something I really looked up to because you went from coming into this from a very mundane job, not really understanding your own skill sets, but knowing that you had more to like, damn, somebody wants something broken, give it to Debra. You want to see if there's a missing detail, Debra's going to find it. Debra is the lady that you want on all of your testing stuff. She's going to write your testing scripts, your UAT, your SAT, everything. And you knocked it out of the park. My lady. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:19

Yeah. I'm pretty proud of that work. Yeah. I'm pretty proud of that work. But you said something a minute ago that really kind of landed with me is I can't now. I mean, it was 10 minutes. It was like 10 seconds ago. And my old lady brain is having a hard time remembering it, but it was something to the effect of you had to feel it in yourself first. Yeah. That is true of that job move. I had to feel it in myself first. And yeah, Growing into that job, I had to feel in myself first. And there is that courage that you were speaking of that requires to just bite the bullet and do it. Right? Just do it. And then you can be it.

SPEAKER_02: 25:02

Absolutely. Be, do, have, do, have, be. Where was that? Be, do, have. But you were that first. You have... So the thing is, is like what I practice in meditation all the time, if I want something, and this is how I call in the meta manifestation, for example, is like, we're, I'm in the, I'm in the meditation in the zone and I'm imagining myself having this thing that I want. What's it feel like? What's it smell like? What's it taste like? All of the things. What am I wearing? Where am I? Who's around me? yeah who am i calling as soon as i get it yeah like that's the b

SPEAKER_01: 25:49

and

SPEAKER_02: 25:51

that's where that courage is and then the do comes naturally because then your nervous system is going to meet you and collapse that time and then you have it so then you did it right yeah when you got into it uh you were learning alongside a bunch of people we were all really new to all of that Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:15

Yeah, we were.

SPEAKER_02: 26:16

I think that felt

SPEAKER_00: 26:17

comfortable. You know what? It did. It was scary. Like, I hope I don't screw this up beyond all recognition, right? I hope I don't foobar this. But I think we were all given the space to break it, to not do it right so that we could come back and fix it and grow. And, you know, I've had people say that to me. in jobs before i had a director in the mundane healthcare spot who his phrase was i don't care if you screw it up once because you're gonna fix it we're gonna figure out what happened you're gonna fix it and you're not gonna do it again then you'll have learned something now if you screw it up the same way over and over again then we've got a problem

SPEAKER_02: 27:10

yeah

SPEAKER_00: 27:11

So, yeah, I guess I did have the space to under him, but he was kind of removed from where I ended up in that company. It's important to have people along the way that understand that things are not perfect and that you're going to stumble and you're going to fall. And maybe it's over a cliff and maybe it hurts a lot, but it's not the end of the world. And you can... have and be given the grace to fix it and learn and move on. That's my big thing right now is this new job is challenging in different ways. It's a lot of people I don't know. We weren't coexisting. We weren't cohabitating in an office beforehand. So it's building relationships virtually, which is harder. I think it's harder, right? But I find myself reframing rephrasing in my head or repeating in my head, they deserve the grace you would want. They deserve the grace you would want. You're going to need that grace from them. They deserve the grace you would want. So I am putting grace out. I am trying to put grace out into the universe in the hopes that the universe returns that to me.

SPEAKER_02: 28:34

As it will.

SPEAKER_00: 28:35

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_02: 28:37

Yeah. And it will be in like different ways. in ways that you probably won't expect, but will need.

SPEAKER_00: 28:44

Isn't that always the case?

SPEAKER_02: 28:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:46

And that's where the, that's where the joy comes from, right? Wow. What a surprise. What an amazing surprise.

SPEAKER_02: 28:52

Yeah. The grace you want might show up in your hip pop class. Where the hip might just stay where it's at. Where it's supposed to. Yeah. Yeah, I 100% think that's what it takes to be an exceptional, an extraordinary project manager. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 29:24

it is. Yeah, and patience.

SPEAKER_02: 29:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 29:29

And lack of ego, right? Burn.

SPEAKER_02: 29:32

Burn.

SPEAKER_00: 29:33

Yeah, lack of ego. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know all this stuff. I have to rely on everybody else's knowledge. And, you know, we're supposed to be talking about being in the business of me or being in the business of yourself. But I think that's part of it. I think understanding and coming at things from a humble place is important in being in the business of yourself. Because if you ever... get to the point where you can't accept that you've done something maybe not the best way or maybe not the right way, then you really are taking those growth opportunities away from yourself, right?

SPEAKER_02: 30:18

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 30:21

Absolutely. I think those granting and asking for grace and coming at things humbly and leaving your ego at the door are all huge parts of being in the business of yourself.

SPEAKER_02: 30:40

So what about this ego part is, um, the most centric that you've seen? Uh, I mean, I know with your other job, you said the mundane job, she was just like giving you work that wasn't allowing you to grow. But like, where have you seen this when you pull into your next level job and your next level job get in the way?

SPEAKER_00: 31:04

Oh, well, I mean, we have a common person in that health job, too, that we both ran into. And his ego was... Gigantic. I almost

SPEAKER_02: 31:19

mentioned him just a minute ago, which I'm glad I didn't, but yes, carry on. I can't wait to hear the rest of this. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 31:26

I mean, his decision was his decision and it was the right decision, even though you could see the train coming for that sucker to blow it up. Right. But as the project manager, you don't get to make the business decisions. You get to figure out how to implement those business decisions wrong or right and You can state your opinion. You can ask the leading questions to try to change their mind. But in the end, their word goes, right? And that ego of, I'm right, I know I'm right, I know so much, is the one thing that will shoot a project in the foot every time. It will 100%. create failure in a project.

SPEAKER_02: 32:21

Yeah, it does. I've seen it hand in hand in hand as well, even in my own work. We try our absolute best to stay out of our ways, but at the end of it, man, there's always at least one or two lessons learned that I find within my own self. I'm like, I should have seen that, but where was I in that moment? I wasn't looking all the way around me. I was just like one direction.

UNKNOWN: 32:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:49

Yeah, it was right. I get humbled a lot, mainly with my relationship with my fiance, but also like, you know, sometimes it works. but josh humbles me he humbled me today

SPEAKER_01: 33:05

and

SPEAKER_02: 33:07

i'm like oh shit sorry he's like you're not ruining another day of my week we're on wednesday and i'm like i am not trying to ruin your day blah blah blah you know but you know i did I'm sorry for everybody out there, but yeah. Back to you, Debra. I could talk about me all day, but drop my ego, Rachel. Oh yeah. I'm working on it every day.

SPEAKER_00: 33:39

Every day.

SPEAKER_02: 33:41

So

SPEAKER_00: 33:42

yeah. Your, your ego also gets in the way. Not yours personally, not Rachel's ego, yours in the general, right? Right. My ego gets in the way of learning new things, right? I mean, you get in that ego and then you dig your heels in and you get stubborn and then you can't see anything but what you are stomping your foot about. And maybe you are right, but maybe there's another perspective. And maybe two things can be right at the same time. And the other right way is the way it needs to be done.

SPEAKER_02: 34:21

Yeah. you're right that is so right um i've been calling that just recently the side door you know the front door is going to let you in but sometimes it's locked or there's a line and if you want in quicker there's always a side door always yeah and Where it's people growing up, it was, you need to think outside the box. And every time I heard that, I literally thought of a box, being in the box. And I'm like, I don't know how to get out. And even in like growing up in school, when they're like, look at you, Valerie, you thought outside of the box. I'm like, how does Valerie get outside of the box? You know, they could have said it somewhere different phrase.

SPEAKER_00: 35:11

Did you not do a... contest of some sort where you wanted to grow up to be a peacock i sure did how far out of the box can you get maybe

SPEAKER_02: 35:22

i've just never been in the box how do you get in the box i don't know but yeah yeah it is um always another opportunity and change in perspective and i i Geez, oh Pete, the dollars I could have made if I had just, you know, invented that. It works. Side doors are great. So when you decided to take your PMP exam, what job were you in? Healthcare 2 or bug job?

SPEAKER_00: 36:05

So healthcare two morphed into healthcare three, right? Healthcare two was bought. So it was in that healthcare three space that I got my PMP.

SPEAKER_02: 36:16

I try to black that space out.

SPEAKER_00: 36:18

Yeah, me too. But it was another one of those, what do I need to do to make me okay? And staying there was not it.

SPEAKER_02: 36:29

Yeah. That job took our dream and turned it into a nightmare.

SPEAKER_00: 36:34

It did. It was, it was soul sucking. It was really soul sucking. And it was, and I've had, it's not the only soul sucking job I've ever had, right? Everybody runs across more than one of those. And it was one of those two or three professional experiences that I have had that will go down in the Never ever do that again book. See those signs sooner and do not allow yourself to wallow in the mud.

SPEAKER_02: 37:07

What

SPEAKER_00: 37:07

were those signs for you? You know, remember earlier I was talking about listening to that little voice in your head and there are a number of times that I just ignored that voice with that soul-sucking job and one of them was... Having a lunch, impromptu lunch with the director. And he did not want to hear anything about me. I guess I was supposed to hang on his every word and acknowledge what an awesome dude he was. Yeah. And if I had paid attention to that interaction a little more closely and really listened to that voice in my head, that would have been the first red flag. Great.

SPEAKER_02: 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:05

Yeah. So, but beyond that, it was, again, lack of meaningful work. It was lack of any interest in what I had to bring to the table. It was really clearly... it was very clear that my presence on that team was simply being tolerated because it had to be.

SPEAKER_02: 38:31

Yeah. Because the acquisition.

SPEAKER_00: 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 38:34

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I felt that vibe from everybody there.

SPEAKER_00: 38:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 38:43

I was like, ah,

SPEAKER_00: 38:45

this does not feel right.

SPEAKER_02: 38:47

Y'all are asking too much for me. And I don't even feel like, No, I can't do it. But yeah. Can't do it. Not doing it. So when that came to you and you got that sticky, icky, like that little voice, how much, how loud did it get? It got really loud. It wasn't a whisper anymore,

SPEAKER_00: 39:08

right? It was not a whisper anymore. It got really loud. It was like, this is stupid. What are you doing with your life? This is going nowhere. This is miserable. Like, it was almost like being a frog in a pot. you know, that, that story that you put the frog in the pot and the water's cold, you turn the heat up and the frog doesn't ever notice the water getting warmer and hotter. That was me. Like it was getting worse and worse and worse. And I wasn't paying enough attention along the way to the point where I finally looked up. I was like, this fucking sucks. This water is boiling and I do not want to be here anymore. Like I, I'm reaching out to everybody I know to see what's available out there. And I am making the first jump that comes along the way.

SPEAKER_02: 39:52

Wow. I've never heard that analogy frog in a pot, but I'm writing that down in my green pen so that first of all, use that for forever. And of course you're going to have to jump out. It's hot. It's hot. Do you want to die? Right.

SPEAKER_00: 40:11

How'd you jump out of this boiling pot of water?

SPEAKER_02: 40:15

What did that, did that cause anything? And I don't know the answer to this, so I'm just asking. in a way that this might not even be something that happened to you like it happened with me, but did it cause anything like physically a change for you, like a lack of sleep or strife at home, or what did that bring up in other areas of your life where it got really loud?

SPEAKER_00: 40:48

I cannot imagine I was that much fun to live with. I mean... Nobody complained to me, but I cannot imagine I was that much fun to live with at the time. I don't know that there were, you know, there probably were physical manifestations. I was probably really depressed and I think I probably missed dance more than I would normally. Like I didn't even have the energy to want to go to a tap class. And I love my tap classes. It's just goofy and fun and silly and nobody there takes it seriously. And, you know, and, you know, I've made some good connections there. And I just think I didn't have the energy to do much of anything. Like Stella lost her mojo, right?

SPEAKER_02: 41:40

Yep. Yep. That's actually around the time I quit my own business of myself.

SPEAKER_00: 41:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 41:50

It was during that acquisition.

UNKNOWN: 41:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:54

You quit the

SPEAKER_02: 41:54

business of yourself at that time? Yeah, I quit my online yoga during that

SPEAKER_00: 41:58

time. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:02

Because I was just traveling too much and then I missed my own meetings with you.

SPEAKER_00: 42:07

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was just... I think it got worse after you left. I mean, when they moved us into the final... And that was the other thing. We were freaking hot potato. We were there... Two years, maybe. And it probably been under three different. Umbrellas. And that final one was just the worst.

SPEAKER_02: 42:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:33

It was the worst of the worst. That's where they turned the gas up from a medium to a high. Boiled that pot faster.

SPEAKER_02: 42:39

So did you quit and then get another job or did you line up? No job.

SPEAKER_00: 42:44

I found another job first. I. And I don't know that that's ever going to be something that changes about me. I. will always need to have that financial safety and knowing that things are cared for in that realm. It just is, I could probably go to a shrink and have all kinds of childhood things that make me that way. Or maybe it's just genetically, I'm a worrier. I don't know. It just is something that in order for me to be, I am, I don't know that I will ever be comfortable making a leap, not knowing what the financial security is in that situation.

SPEAKER_02: 43:27

Yeah. I'm literally with you on that, which is, that's a real thing for me. I can only imagine for you having a house of four and at this point now two are in college. I mean, that's a big life situation where you're at.

SPEAKER_00: 43:45

Actually, one of them is out. My oldest has graduated. He graduated IUS a couple of years ago. Yeah. He's fully out of the house.

UNKNOWN: 43:53

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_00: 43:54

So that's a new thing that we're figuring out is being sort of empty nesters because the youngest one is home for her last nine credit hours and she's home for, I don't know, a couple of years until she's stable. Yeah. But that whole understanding what you need as you become an empty nester and being able to feed your soul is totally different. It's a totally different thing to look at. Like, Oh, I don't have to run anybody to dance. There is no wrestling practice. There's no soccer practice. There's no, the hell am I doing with the rest of my time?

SPEAKER_02: 44:35

Well, so you got to have space.

SPEAKER_00: 44:37

Yeah. Yeah. What do I want to do with my time? That's, that's the hardest thing for me, I think. I mean, beyond my two days a week that I go to the studio to dance, what do I really want that extra time to be filled up with? Right.

UNKNOWN: 44:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 44:53

Yeah. So with the new position and transferring, getting the new job while you had your old job, I definitely think that that's smart. And there's going to be people that are on both sides of the fence, right? Yeah. Sometimes you just need to make the leap. Yeah, I get that. And sometimes the leap is just hopping from one job to the other. It doesn't have to mean you've got to jump out of the job realm altogether.

SPEAKER_00: 45:24

Right. I prefer jumping out of that plane with a parachute.

SPEAKER_02: 45:28

Yeah. I'm with you. Safety first, people. But health is wealth. Yes. The reason they're all green. That's right. Share the same color. But yeah, I love that. And that I feel like is planned and conscious and Right? Yes. Like it's not like off the cuff. I'm so mad at this job. This director is the worst. I'm just not going to show up ever again. But also like people need to know that that is very needed too. And if that is really how you value and feel yourself, don't show up. Right. Right. For me. Yeah. like I'm with you on the financial aspect, but like for people like my mom's story that she shared or Michelle's story, girl, get the hell out. This is disrupting your sleep and your family and everything else. That's why I asked you the question. I just wanted to know, like, did it show up for you in that sense?

SPEAKER_00: 46:38

It was, it was screaming so loud in my head. I couldn't ignore it, but I had to be comfortable with how I went about doing it. And, and so I guess, I guess the real answer there is the screaming in my head was not so uncomfortable that it outweighed the need to do it safely.

SPEAKER_02: 46:57

Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that too. Yeah. And that takes a lot of courage because then you went from a whole entire world that you spent a the better part of 20 years in up at this point in healthcare. Yeah. To bugs.

SPEAKER_00: 47:17

To bugs. Saving lives to killing bugs.

SPEAKER_02: 47:22

So how's this going? But

SPEAKER_00: 47:31

really, how is it going? It's going good. It's going good. They have a lot to learn. I have a lot I can teach them. I feel like... The position has... I got to plug in my laptop. It's the batteries dying. Okay. That's okay. I feel like this job is changing my focus. Like in the last jobs, I was in a place of learning and growing and honing my skills. And in this job, I am... I have the ability to impart some of that knowledge. That's a beautiful transition. It is. If they'll let me do it, right? I mean, the people that are there, I see what they need. I understand what they can use for me. I understand the things that I can bring to them and help them with. But getting them to the point where they understand that they need it and are accepting of that is the real challenge. That's the frustration in the job right now.

SPEAKER_02: 48:46

Yeah. And that takes time. It's a change management process.

SPEAKER_01: 48:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 48:51

You know, I mean. Yeah, it is. I think my first episode on this podcast talked about how I went from almost the exact same thing you just said was being the student. for so long and drinking it in and now I'm pouring it out into my fellow workmates and I I really feel so I've been there for it'll be three years in November

SPEAKER_00: 49:21

wow

SPEAKER_02: 49:23

yeah and I feel like I'm just now I know I've written processes and stuff like that but I feel like just now the team is taking it and fortifying with it so like everything that i've brought they've they've been drinking it in they're learning it but now they're able to like process improve the process improvement and it is just flourishing and now we're all on the same level again and now i'm back to being a student again it's

SPEAKER_00: 49:56

that's awesome i love that full circle

SPEAKER_02: 49:59

it's cool and i think that's great that you're in that same situation it's going to come right back around and then you'll all be on this like circle together and that's where it that's where the fun comes in and then you get some time to do a podcast great that's how it works no Oh, Del, my team is great. I know your team is great. I know a couple of people you work with and I think that's amazing. Is your job a lot aligned with Michelle and Tim or?

SPEAKER_00: 50:34

No, we actually do have the same boss, but we are on different teams with that boss. So her, she is, her projects are far more, um, What are the words I'm looking for? Like I'm on migration projects and the biggest place that I can help this group of people is instilling some project management guidelines. Like we don't even break our projects down into the phases of a project. They're there, but that's not how they're managed. It's so weird. It's like, How do you... So you don't like have an initiation

SPEAKER_02: 51:28

phase?

SPEAKER_00: 51:28

No, not really. Planning? Like we have a discovery call and then we do a kickoff call. Oh, okay. How do you get the project off after you've already done discovery? This is so fast backwards. Whereas Michelle's team does it in a little bit more... Normal flow of things. Dang, she's like

SPEAKER_02: 51:51

golden nuggets. I want to get back in with her, man, so I can just continue to thrive. I love that about your company, though, because I felt the exact same way. I'm like, what's this proprietary fake project shit you've got going on right now? This is just not PMP, PMI standard. Get out of here. You all are coining the term. So how does that make you feel, Debra?

SPEAKER_00: 52:28

Honestly, it makes me feel powerful and frustrated at the same time. I could do so much good for this company, for our little team, our little corner of the world. Oh my

SPEAKER_02: 52:43

God, why won't you all let me do so much for you all? Right? Just receive me already. Why are you

SPEAKER_00: 52:52

putting up this brick wall? But there again goes the need to provide some grace, right? And just meet them where they're at so that you can pull them along.

SPEAKER_02: 53:04

You'll find your side door.

SPEAKER_00: 53:05

That's right.

SPEAKER_02: 53:06

It's available.

SPEAKER_00: 53:07

It is. It is.

SPEAKER_02: 53:08

And

SPEAKER_00: 53:10

I think it's starting to show itself a little bit because... Actually, I think I'm starting to build that side door. Good for you. I, because I see things that need to be done and I'm just like, Hey, I think we could use this. I'm going to go build something. And they're like, Oh yeah. Okay. Of course you are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 53:33

How many processes have you made already? Right. How many Visio diagrams?

SPEAKER_00: 53:40

Oh yeah. Like I don't have Visio and it's making me crazy.

SPEAKER_02: 53:44

Oh gosh. I think I'd lose my mind.

SPEAKER_00: 53:46

Yeah. It's not fun.

SPEAKER_02: 53:47

The other day I saw a Visio and it was lacking a whole stop for transfer of files. And it made me, I literally, I lost my mind on this video. I'm like, how does this person not know if you are stopping somewhere, it needs to have a picture. And what's, what are these colors? You know, like I was like, there is no legend. Why are they showing this to like leadership? They get away with that there, you know, all these things are going in my head. So I can only imagine you, the tester who breaks everything, what you're thinking of.

SPEAKER_00: 54:28

Yeah. Like, Oh my God, this is broken. I mean, and their migration projects. So, you know, there, a thousand points of failure anyway.

SPEAKER_01: 54:35

Every

SPEAKER_00: 54:36

migration project is inherently a thousand points of failure. And when the project management quote process is put on top of that, it just makes it worse.

SPEAKER_02: 54:51

Death by a thousand paper cuts.

SPEAKER_00: 54:53

Yes. Death by a thousand paper cuts. Yes. Yes, ma'am. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02: 54:59

But it's

SPEAKER_00: 55:00

okay. It's the challenge, right? That is the challenge of this job.

SPEAKER_02: 55:04

It's fun. That's like the puzzle.

SPEAKER_00: 55:08

Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 55:09

yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 55:10

What's your favorite part? I think my favorite part is, that's a really good question. I think my favorite part is the process part of it. You know, if I were to really break my favorite things down in a job, the project management, I liked the meetings. I like getting to know people and I like, you know, understanding where they're at and what they need. So that's a good part because I'm kind of a people-oriented person when it comes to that. But my really favorite part is seeing that we need change management. Or that we need scope change documentation and making a scope change document. So it's finding those places where I can apply the process that needs to be put there.

SPEAKER_02: 56:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 56:08

And that is really my favorite party job, which is good because they need so much of that. But it's frustrating because I need to pull them along. Right. But I'm also finding that I can do it through that side door without them even realizing I'm doing it. They're probably super appreciative of you. I hope so. I mean, you know. I would be. I think that I'm not at risk of being fired for performance. Hey, there we go.

SPEAKER_02: 56:41

We won. We won the day. Oh, well, this is awesome. I literally, I feel like we just had... lunch together. I

SPEAKER_00: 56:52

know. And now I'm really can't wait to see you in person and have like a live in 3D lunch with you.

SPEAKER_02: 57:02

We need to schedule that with you and Michelle. Let's just like, let's get

SPEAKER_00: 57:08

that. And John Black. I think we would all be down to drive to you.

SPEAKER_02: 57:12

You'd come to Stanford?

SPEAKER_00: 57:14

Oh my gosh, yes. Michelle and I have been talking about it. We just have to, yes, to the Bluebird. We just have to figure out when.

SPEAKER_02: 57:23

You all will have to see the new kitchens because the last time you were here, it was a disaster. Well, it wasn't a disaster. It just wasn't done.

SPEAKER_00: 57:33

You hadn't even started remodeling yet.

SPEAKER_02: 57:36

Yeah. That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 57:40

Wait till you see it now. I can't wait to see it. I think I've seen some pictures, but there's nothing like, again, live in 3D, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_02: 57:52

We'll make that happen. It's exciting. Well, Debra, I want to thank you so much for your time. I feel like you gave us some really good golden nuggets. I hope so. I mean, it flowed. So great. The frog in the pot. To honestly like the grace and asking for grace, giving grace, asking for grace and dropping the ego. I mean, if you can't understand those things within project management, like what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00: 58:30

I think that's a hard line to walk though. Being confident enough in your skills to know that you can do the job and leave the ego behind.

SPEAKER_02: 58:37

Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_00: 58:39

I think that's hard.

SPEAKER_02: 58:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 58:41

But worth it. Absolutely worth it.

SPEAKER_02: 58:44

It's hard for me too. And I try to stay conscious of that literally every day. I can't tell you the amount of times I've even told my director, today's director, I'm like, you know, I'm really sorry, but tone was probably really shitty of me or something like that. I mean, like it happens. And then other days I'm like, thank you. You're just like the best support. You guys are amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 59:07

So it's learning to take that breath between the stimulus and the reaction, right?

SPEAKER_02: 59:13

Yeah, it is. It's an everyday thing. I'm my own project.

SPEAKER_00: 59:20

Right. Because we are in the project of ourselves. That's right.

SPEAKER_02: 59:25

I love you. And I love you. Thank you

SPEAKER_00: 59:27

for having me. This was so much fun. I was really nervous, but this was so much fun. And it really was just like catching up with a very dear friend. Thank you for having me.