Wu Wei Explained: Taoism & Modern Leadership

What is Wu Wei? And how does Taoism apply to leadership, business, and personal growth?

In this episode, Rachel Fitzpatrick sits down with Prashanthi Amarnath, author of Embracing Paradox, to explore paradox, authenticity, energy, and effortless action.

Then:

You’ll learn:
 • What Wu Wei really means (it’s not passive)
 • How Taoist philosophy changes the way you lead
 • Why tension is a signal, not a problem
 • How to grow without forcing outcomes
 • A practical mindset for embracing paradox

If you’re building something meaningful and feel the pull between ambition and presence, this conversation reframes growth through alignment instead of control.

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Chapters

• 0:00 What Is Wu Wei? (And Why It’s Misunderstood)
• 3:45 Taoism in Modern Leadership
• 9:50 Identity, Energy & Authenticity
• 15:30 The Tao: Responsiveness Over Rigidity
• 25:05 Wu Wei & Effortless Action in Business
• 31:40 The Science of Perception & Reality
• 36:50 Money, Flow & Financial Alignment
• 42:00 Embracing Paradox Without Burning Out

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:02

Okay, hi! Hey! If you're new here, welcome to the Fitsin Project. And if you're not, you already know we don't play small around here. I'm Rachel, corporate project executive by Day, yoga teacher and retreat host by passion, and a woman wildly committed to helping you stop outsourcing your power. This show is where structure meets soul, where we regulate the nervous system and scale the business, and where we stop pretending burnout is normal. Quick love to the humans and brands that brought this show. And I actually use all these in real life. 10 Financial because money conversations should feel empowering. Rage Create for bold creative entrepreneurs, The Expansion Room with Jennifer Liszt, Lotus and Luna, Lifeform Yoga Mat, Ma Ma Ma Roder Da, Prana Yoga Wear, and Breath Work with Tabitha De Bruitt. She is a game changer. Links are in the show notes. Support the ones that support this work. And alright, let's get it. Let's talk about today. Hello, oh my goodness. I hope you guys had the best weekend. You know, I had a pretty good one myself, and it was restorative and everything that I needed. But today I've got one of the most beautiful guests ever. Her name is Prashanti Arminat, and she is here to tell us about the Embracing Paradox book that she just wrote. And I really am so proud of this conversation because I'm so excited to share this point of view. I'm excited to share her as an author, and she's a spiritual seeker who blends philosophical insights with practical guidance from modern life. She never misses an opportunity to spend time outdoors where she feels at peace. She is also an information technology, much like me, as a project manager, but she understands the value of balancing this full-time career with her family and her ongoing study of spirituality, especially in the teachings of the Tau. And oh my gosh, just please stay tuned. Listen to her. If you love it, share it with a friend, write a review, do all of the beautiful things that can help support this podcast. Because I'm telling you what, you're gonna learn a lot and I'm excited for you. What does it mean to you to be in the business of yourself?

SPEAKER_00: 2:30

Sure. Great question, Rachel. So when people talk about being in the business of themselves, they usually mean like branding or visibility or some kind of like a positioning, right? The modern idea that we are each a product to polish, to present, and to promote. But I think from a from like a Taoist perspective, being in the business of myself means something completely different. It means learning to move through the world without turning myself into a rigid identity. So it means recognizing that who I am is not a fixed object to manage, but but like a living process, a fluid, responsive, ever-unfolding. But here's a paradox. We all present ourselves, yet the moment we cling to that presentation, we lose the reality. In in Taoism, identity is um a moving target. The more tightly we hold it, the more fragile it it becomes. The more lightly we hold it, the more authentic it becomes. Being in the business of myself through a Taoist lens is is really not about performance. It's about alignment. Not about selling an image, but about expressing what is actually true in that moment. The Tao teaches that the sage is not fixed, she adapts without self-betrayal. She shows up without performing, she responds without abandoning herself. But this is the very different perspective from the modern pressure to curate ourselves into this perfect brand. In fact, the Tao would say the more you try to be someone, the further you actually drift from yourself. So when I say we are all selling ourselves, I don't mean it like cynically, but I mean that we all are offering some version of ourselves to the world. But the Tao invites us to offer something that is real and not something that is rigid. So Taoism kind of saves us from that trap. It reminds us that the authenticity is not a brand, it's just a state of that congruence. It's that place between I want to be seen and I just don't want to be defined. It's it's the paradox between I have a self and I'm not limited by that self. I'm limitless. And to be in business of myself doastically is to like honor the truth of who I am right now while knowing that, okay, I'm may not be the same tomorrow. It is to like show up with sincerity, but without gripping a persona. It is to like let my life speak for itself rather than consistently trying to speak about my life. Right? It is to offer just what is like real, not what is rehearsed. And and to trust that who I am in my natural, unforced state is enough. So the paradox. So the paradox really here is that we offer ourselves to this world, but we do not become what we offer. We we just express that identity, but we do not cling to that identity. We just show up fully, but we do not solidify that self. So being in business of myself through the Tao is not a performance of like selfhood. It's it is a relationship with with authenticity. And when authenticity leads, the rest follows just naturally. Things would just fall in place.

SPEAKER_01: 6:36

That is so beautiful. And I feel like you really know what you're talking about here on every level because you are so enriched in the Tao, and you are so enriched in other religions, right? And experiences with theologies and how that relates to yourself and your brand, so to speak, of where you come from and how you present in your own identity. You want to touch on that a little?

SPEAKER_00: 7:05

Absolutely. This is a paradox. When people hear that I practice Taoism, they assume that it lives in the spiritual parts of my life. When I meditate, when I'm reflecting, when I'm writing, but honestly, right, the place where the Tao shows up most clearly is in my day job as a project manager. Project management is full of moving parts like timelines, risks, your dependencies, possibilities, pressure. And the Tao has taught me not to force those elements into a rigid order, but to like work with that natural rhythm. Like the Dao teaches responsiveness, not rigidity, right? Every project plan just looks perfect on paper until the project begins. Yeah. The DAO prepares us for this. And it reminds me that nothing is static, like requirements shift, priorities change, people get overwhelmed instead of clinging to that original plan. The DAO just helps me adapt without panic. And I move with reality instead of resisting it. And then Wu Wei. Wu Wei helps me lead without pushing. Wu Wei effortless action is not doing nothing. It's actually removing the unnecessary force. And then project management, that looks like guiding without micromanaging, influencing without dominating, and creating momentum without pressure and trusting the team's intelligence instead of just tightening around them. So the paradox is the less I force, the more smoothly the team moves. And the DAO like helps me see tension as information, not as a failure, because every project has difficult faces. And in the past, tension felt like a problem, but now it feels like a signal. So the DAO teaches that opposites they arise together and obstacles and breakthroughs. They always come as pairs. So instead of like reacting to that tension, I just read it. Instead of pushing harder, I just adjust sooner. So Taoism kind of softens my relationship with timelines in a way. The project requires structure, but they also require me to flow. So Taoism kind of helps me balance them both. So I set deadlines, yes, but I don't grip them so tightly that I lose clarity. So the result is a grounded steadiness that keeps the team regulated and not rushed.

SPEAKER_02: 9:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:43

So, and and there are multiple verses in Dao Teaching that I've talked about this in my book a lot about project management, Rachel, because that's that's what I do for my profession. So I've talked a lot about it. And I think it was verse 49, where it's where I talk about how the DAO teaches me not to like hold a fixed mind. Like projects involved many stakeholders and each with their own reality, right? Instead of clinging to my view. Taoism helps me stay flexible to take the mind of the people as my own. And it makes me a better listener, a better collaborator, and a calm decision maker. So the DAO kind of helps me manage uncertainty with ease, and uncertainty is such a natural state of any complex project. So DAO shifts me from like needing answers to widening my perception. Like I don't know yet, and I can still take the next right step. And this alone just reduces stress across the whole team. And sometimes you probably felt it too. When you're managing a project, you know how your mood, your team's mood depends so much on your mood. Then you show up in a way that affects the team. So you are in fact carrying the burden of impacting the whole, the vibe of the whole team and their families and the whole web of life that they carry. So it's it's a very important role.

SPEAKER_01: 11:16

It is. And I'll tell you what, you have to kind of be the energy you want to see. When you're working in this environment as a project manager, project executive, it doesn't matter. But if you are the if you are like, we're not gonna make this deadline, there's just nothing that's gonna happen, then you're not gonna make the deadline. But if you're over and you're kind of optimistic, sometimes even fake optimism, but like honestly, if you are kind of like you're not negative, you're you're out there really just trying to find the next door. It doesn't have to be the front door every time. You can go around to the side of the building. Well said. So there's ways where people like to use the phrase think outside of the box. Oh yeah, absolutely. Always hated that phrase. I hated that phrase. I'm like, oh my God. But I never put myself in the box to begin with. So why am I thinking outside of something I don't even belong in, you know? So I um I find that to be hilarious, but I understand that it is just go around, find another door, find a different type of answer. But I love where you are talking about your identity and you know how you do things. A lot of people are like, oh, Taoism is more spiritual, but it shows up in your day-to-day.

SPEAKER_02: 12:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:46

But I feel like that's kind of how you are the energy that you want to see in return, right? And you're kind of holding that identity shift, so to speak, for whatever it is that you are presenting uh that's presenting to you in that day, right? So how do you understand what is yours versus someone else's? So if you're like in a, for example, it's easy for me to talk with you about project management because we speak the same language. But if so, if we're in a project together and something is going haywire, and there's there's risk, there's things that we just can't control. And that's just the nature of the beast. But how do you understand what is your energy and your input versus what are you attaching to from someone else? How do you clarify your differences?

SPEAKER_00: 13:45

Absolutely. That is a very deep question, Rachel. It just hits the spot. Beautiful question. I don't think I've ever I mean asked this question before. And I'm I'm thinking you this is such a great question for us to like discuss together about what it is. Because I I'm I'm fascinated by this question. I I really am.

SPEAKER_01: 14:09

Yeah. So I can help break it down a little bit from my experience, yeah, for example, um, just relation just living in a house with somebody. Let me break it down in this way. Okay. So just living in a house, I could I work from home. I can have a whole day's work. And at the end of the day, am I bringing in people's other energy for my family time that I've had in the house all day long because I work from home? Or am I able to shut that off and just come back into my energy? And how I come back to myself and flow with my own fluids is I take some time to kind of like recalibrate. That's why I hate back-to-back meetings, by the way, because how am I supposed to shift from this to this to this like so quickly? But that's that's what I need. That's what I've gotta do. I've just gotta take like five minutes, ten minutes, just alone, and then I can shift into the rest of my evening and know that it's me coming through, not my boss or my coworker.

SPEAKER_00: 15:23

Yeah, yeah. I think I see your point. So it is like you have to somehow find a way to detach yourself from the people, the situation, because you're like me. I I think about the day. I'm like, I'm constantly thinking, okay, this person reacted a certain way. What did what did she really mean by that? Like, did she did she have inner motives? You know, we we go into I go into that that thought, and that does keep me occupied. And that's in a way what you're saying is that energy. It's that energy from her, which I'm still carrying with me. And there should be a way to to let that go. Right? Because you're and and and that is where Tao says you have to be in the moment, like be here and now, because now this moment is the most beautiful, greatest gift that anyone could hold. And why would you be somewhere else instead of this moment? Because this moment is the most real there there could ever be. This this is it. But to live that, to embody that is very difficult. We all know this, that I have to get there. I know, I know A to B, I know what B is, but I I don't know how to embody that. And I think that's what that's where the practices of Wu Wei, Wu Wei comes into play. Wu Wei is trusting that whatever is going on around us is for good, for our greatest good, for our higher good. Because that power, the Tao, that most powerful source, she is operating universes. She's controlling multiverses. And and here we are thinking about what Rachel said the other day.

SPEAKER_02: 17:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:17

It's kind of really crazy when we put this into perspective. Like, how could you not trust the Tao who is the the force that control that that's controlling everything? You would have to trust and and and surrender at that point. And from then on, I guess you're you're aligned with Tao. Everything just happens to you and you're you're in the moment. You're you're in that be here now moment.

SPEAKER_01: 17:47

Yeah. I love using this in my yoga classes, the phrase, take your time or someone else will. Because I see that like in my work, I see it in my relationship, I see it as being a mom or wherever I am. If I don't stand in my own present moment, I get hijacked from all over the place. It's it's hard even sometimes to have a conversation around my four-year-old because he's just like, mom, I'm right here, I'm right here. I'm like, oh my God, it's not your turn. And that is how we can stay in the moment. Like, take your time or someone else will. But when you speak at the DAO and how she's the operator of all of the universe and multiverses, is this a spiritual concept with you? Or for anyone who may not know, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_00: 18:46

Like what DAO means.

SPEAKER_02: 18:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 18:50

Wow. That's a very, very loaded question. Okay, I'll give you this scenario. Yeah. Right? And and my my life, honestly, has been a literal dance of opposites. So I grew up in India where even access to clean water was a daily uncertainty. Like I still remember standing in the line, waiting for the water truck to arrive, and knowing that every drop mattered, and experience that experience just gave me a deep sense of gratitude, but not in like a theoretical way, but in a lived embodied way. So when I moved to to Australia, and it was like stepping into a completely different dimension, like the healthcare system, the sense of the ease, the natural beauty, the spaciousness, it all just felt so abundant. Like Australia taught me like what it means for a society to like function with the trust and and infrastructure that supports its its people. And I saw firsthand like how privileged looks. People don't realize that they're privileged, right? I mean, it not in like the most compassionate way. And it opened my eyes to global inequalities, but also to how environments like shape our understanding of what is normal. Like later, moving to the United States added another layer, a country full of innovation and opportunity, and yet with like the complex systems where something as essential as healthcare can feel inaccessible. So when I read the words too of Dao about the interplay of like the beauty and ugliness, the ease and the difficulty, the abundance and scarcity, it just felt like it was describing my my own journey, my own life. And the Tao teaches that these contrasts just don't compete. They they coexist. And my time across these three countries kind of helped me understand that that deeply. Australia taught me that something about In and Yang, about the balance, about having that structure and flow and effort and ease. And it helped me just see that every place, every face of life just carries that vital expression of the Tao, like just like in nature. The seed isn't less than the tree. The sprout isn't like inferior to the bloom. Each stage just holds its magnificence. And and and what Paradox has taught me that Australia helped reveal that here's the beautiful part, right? These experiences just didn't shape my worldview. So Australia showed me that when life flows easily, it just creates room for reflection, creativity, and breadth. And India taught me resilience, resourcefulness, and then the sacredness of the basics. And the US taught me this ambition, innovation, and the courage to question. And together they formed a complete in and yang, a full circle. So when I talk about embracing paradox, it's not a philosophical idea, right? It's it's My lived experience. It is recognizing that without the backdrop of one reality, the other cannot be understood. And that the difficult parts of our lives just give meaning to the to the beautiful ones. That very culture, every place, every chapter holds a lesson in the Tao, whether we know it or not. And that's what Tao is. Tao is that consciousness, people call consciousness. In Hinduism, they call Brahman. In Christianity, I guess I call it Christ consciousness. There are and that's what Taoists called it as Tao. It's just a different name to that source, that universe. And and that is that is the Tao. And honestly, I was very, very fortunate to have a guru in in this lifetime, um, Sri Satya Saibaba, and his presence and teachings have just shaped the foundation of my spiritual compass, like long even before I encountered Tao. And and really what stood out about him, especially in in India in those ages of Nas was how boldly and beautifully he embraced all religions, right? At a time when when unity across faiths wasn't commonly emphasized. And his message was was so simple and profound. Truth is one, paths are many. And when when that teaching sank into me very early on, it taught me that wisdom doesn't belong to any one tradition. It just flows through like all of them. His guidance like wasn't about like dogma or rituals, but about like inner sincerity, like about how how we show up, how we love, how we serve, and how we hold the world inside our hearts. He thought that the divine is not somewhere else. It is in everyone and in everything. And that understanding kind of creates kind of openness in me, a willingness to see that sacredness everywhere. And what's interesting is that I didn't realize how much of his teachings was preparing me for the Tao. Because it wasn't until many years later, like during that mystical moment where I woke up feeling pulled towards the Tao teaching that everything just clicked the next day during our multi-faith prayer to my guru, prayer I had sung since childhood, I found myself singing the line, Rahim Tao Tu, you are Rahim, you are the Tao. For the first time, the word Tao lit up inside me. And I realized this message of unity had already planted like seeds in my heart long before I even consciously knew what the Tao was. And it felt like he had just been preparing me to recognize the Tao when it arrived. So his influence wasn't about giving me answers, right? It was about expanding that space inside me to receive them. And he he taught me humility, the authenticity, the courage to look within. And when the Tao finally entered my life, it felt like a continuation of everything that he already had awakened in me. And in many ways, my my guru opened the door and the Tao just invited me through it. And that's how Rachel Tao has become my my belief and a part of the fabric that I'm made of today.

SPEAKER_01: 25:32

Wow. That is so beautiful. I feel like you just drew the most gorgeous tapestry ever. I mean, uh going from your different and like experience, and I just find this so fascinating that you are worldly and it's in it's through your life experiences that were just like that's just how it was. You know, that's how you grew up, and and then you moved and you saw the wealth, and it was almost like one extreme to the other. Just as you said, like life in contrast and the yin and the yang is so present everywhere. And I love how your guru prepared you for this what since childhood, right?

SPEAKER_00: 26:21

Yeah, he did. Since childhood. So my my grandparents were were he was guru for my grandparents and my parents. And then when I was growing up, my parents introduced me as he's your god. That's it. He's your god. He's in in Hinduism, guru and god is the same. At least in India. So we don't have so he was my God, he was my everything. And that's how I I grew up. And he's become such an incredible part, he's no more, but I've seen I seen him in in real form. But he's I couldn't even get closer to him, right? Like physically closer. But the connection that we have um is is is the energy connection that it's it's like like how we talked about Rachel at the beginning, how you carry the energy. It is so true, and this is why I believe in energy and that we all are made of energy. We all are vibrating, and I'm my guru is vibrating right now as a speak in this conversation through me to you. He is he is here with us. That's how um I that's the kind of trust and surrender that my parents taught me at a very young age uh to how to trust someone that's not you. Because we're so used to just having to control everything around us. At least I was like that. I mean, I I am I'm still like that at times, and that's where embracing paradox comes into play because I don't always have to be the the wing, or I always don't have to be the yang. I just have to balance, I have to know when to perform and when to pull back. That is where the real it is, the timing, the precision, and and that is what Wu Wei was all is is all about. Wu Wei talks about that. Wu Wei is is often misunderstood, right? Because people when they hear effortless action and think like it means doing nothing. But in Taoism, Wu Wei is it doesn't mean inactivity, it means not forcing. It's the act, it's the art of acting in alignment with what's happening rather than pushing against it.

SPEAKER_01: 28:40

Inspired action. Absolutely. Absolutely spirit action. Inspired.

SPEAKER_02: 28:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 28:47

That's what I do. And that and when I take inspired action, and it usually hits after a meditation or some type of prayer, or when things are just flooding in, and I'm feeling like I'm getting a bunch of downloads. That's when the inspired action comes, and it's so easy and it's so effortless. And everyone's like, how do you get so much done in it?

SPEAKER_02: 29:10

It just does. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 29:16

Imagine having that energy connected to some some higher form, like a god or two guru. It's like you have access to the universe, you have access to all the data. It's like you you have the the textbook for your examination right in front of you. So you have all the answers. You just have to make that final step where you trust, you trust God, you trust that guru, that right thing, the right step's gonna happen. And the right step doesn't mean it's gonna give you joy. It may give you hardship too, but it's about us accepting that. It's about just saying, I I have complete trust. You give me happiness, I'll take it. You give me sorrow, I will take that too, because it is for my own good, and I trust that and and I have that trust in in God. So it's not about trusting Him to always give you, do the right thing. It's about the good thing, it's about giving the right thing at the right time. And that's that's that's the way that that's that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01: 30:21

Right. It's almost like there's a solid understanding that we are here. We're put on the earth, and I had this in a podcast, and this is bringing up Chris Land with his book, The Infinity Within, and he talked with me a couple weeks ago, and he was telling me how it's you're coming, it's from within you, but you're here almost as a a gamification, so to speak. That's how he's looked at it.

SPEAKER_00: 30:51

I heard your episode.

SPEAKER_01: 30:53

I heard and and it was really cool because he's like, You're here for an experience. You're here to experience, and that means you experience everything. The joy, like you said, and the pain and the heart. You know, you have to you're gonna have the pain if you love somebody. That's just the contrast that's your yin and the yang. It goes, it does come with suffering, and it comes with joy, like being a mom and having to step back and not control every tiny move, you know. He may jump off of the tallest step and be like, oh god, I can't watch it. You're gonna break your arm.

SPEAKER_02: 31:35

But that's his life, he's gotta live it. If I want him to do that now, I'm gonna lead him, not to do that.

SPEAKER_01: 31:43

But at the same time, I'm like, if you don't listen to what I have to say, I'm like, see this in my mind's eye, don't do it. But there is a lot of that relinquish control ethic. And you mentioned that earlier with your project management and being in the business of yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 32:00

And that's a beautiful thing about Tao. The opening lines of the Tao itself say is the Tao that that can be spoken is is not the eternal Tao. And that's probably the most famous line in the entire Tao Di Ching. And the beauty of that is that it tells you in that very first breath that whatever you think Tao is, it isn't that. It's something else. It's just not it. Because for me, in that context of of modern life, line is a reminder that the deepest truths aren't meant to be captured, labeled, or turned into concepts. And we live in a world that wants to label everything, our identities, our emotions, our beliefs, our productivity, our purpose. We are constantly defining, written defining ourselves as if like the language can contain the fullness of who we are.

SPEAKER_01: 32:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 32:54

Lao Tzu is saying, be careful with definitions. The m the moment you define something, you limit it. And in in modern terms, the Tao is is is part of life that can't be turned into a a tweet, a a slogan, a philosophy or self-help framework. It it's that quiet intelligence behind things. It's that unseen order beneath all the chaos, and it's it's the presence you feel in in the moments when the mind finally stops narrating. So so when when the text says the Tao that cannot be spoken is not the eternal Tao, I hear it as truth is bigger than your language for it. And that message feels you know especially important today because we live in a time of constant expression, constant talking, pulsing, debating, explaining. But the Tao invites us into the opposite direction, into stillness, into silence, into what you can only experience and not describe. Like in my own life, right? This this line has softened me. It reminds me that I don't have to articulate everything perfectly. I don't have to capture what I'm feeling in words for it to be real. And I don't have to understand the Tao to be guided by it. Sometimes like the most profound clarity comes in moments that have no language at all, like a breath, like when you see a sunset. You can't try and describe a sunset. Like it's too futile. It's so we would have to stop defining everything and and let yourself feel what cannot be spoken. And that to me is is how the Tao continues to just guide us, not through words, but through that space between them. So the biggest paradox that I'm experiencing right now is is that our our ordinary modes of the consciousness is simply not capable of perceiving all of reality. No, like and not.

SPEAKER_01: 34:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 35:00

It's gone.

SPEAKER_01: 35:01

It's just bizarre for the people who are out there like, of course it is. I know exactly what went on. 350 degrees, I know exactly what's happening. No, you don't. No, you have no idea. They give it to songs, and I use this a lot in my yoga classes, and I wish I knew the name and then wish I knew the artist, but he gets a voiceover with a beautiful melody, and he uh says, he goes, the one who can only hear five notes is deaf, and the one who can only see three colors is blind. And when you look at a leaf, you know that it's a leaf, but that you think it might be just one color when there's really just so much more to it. Gosh, yes, and it's like that song every time I hear it, it hits really hard because I can look around and I'm still not experiencing every single thing in my own room.

SPEAKER_02: 35:56

Yep, you know, exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

SPEAKER_00: 36:01

Beautifully said, Rachel. It is so true. Like, but we we just move through life assuming that what we see is the truth. Yeah, yeah. In reality, the perception is like extremely limited. And like you said, like our brains are are just constantly filtering and editing and simplifying what's happening around us because there's just too much information for us to take in.

SPEAKER_01: 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:25

And so much is happening in every moment that we are unaware of because not because we're failing, right? But because reality itself is vast.

SPEAKER_01: 36:36

It is.

SPEAKER_00: 36:37

And even our physical senses tell the story, right? Our our eyes only detect, like it's a very narrow ranges of wavelengths and is an entire spectrum of light that we can't see. But think about the beasts, right? How they can perceive the the ultraviolet patterns on flowers, and and that's completely invisible to us. And and the the insight alone like invites a tremendous amount of humility in us. And there's always more happening than what we can perceive. And everything is vibration, like including us, and and for our spirit or that deeper awareness to reside within us, there has to be some kind of a coherence, right? Or or the resonance. And and this isn't about like striving to become something better or higher, it's about alignment. We would have to, it's about becoming not receptive enough for something subtler to move through us. And another point that stayed with me was this idea that we only see what we are conditioned or programmed to see. But our attention like naturally shapes the world we experience and and when our awareness shifts, when we perceive, um, shifts with it too. And not because reality reorganizes itself for us, but because our filter changes, and when our attention is tuned to to fear or lack or deficiency, and and that is the the world that appears right in front of us. And and when our attention opens gently to to the possibility, a meaning or a goodness, something else just begins to reveal itself and and what was previously invisible suddenly just feels so present. And it it's beautiful. I'm so glad you touched upon this topic because it's it's very, very close to my heart.

SPEAKER_01: 38:26

Yeah, I think that's so amazing and probably even feeds into more of your book in the paradox. I mean, you uh get to see so many things at once. And if you're not open to receive the things that are there for your greatest good, then your perception is still very limited. And I feel like no matter where you're at, there's always gonna be something that's gonna be there right in front of you in plain sight for your greatest good and also for your lowest vibration at the same time.

SPEAKER_00: 39:05

Exactly. And and DAO provides all the tools that you need to get there. Like it it provides you tools like Wu Wei that we can follow. And honestly, it's helped me so much, Rachel, and honestly, I I have zero idea about financial planning. I'm so bad when it comes to managing money, right? I'm spending everywhere. I'm like, I I live in this crazy reality that okay, everything's gonna work out. It's gonna work out. And it will.

SPEAKER_02: 39:38

It will, it will, and uh, you know, that's the trust and then letting go.

SPEAKER_00: 39:47

So this this is what scares me so when people most people think about financial planning. They then think about in terms of control, like control the numbers, control the outcome, like control the future. But from like a Davist perspective, like money is not something we control, it's something we relate to.

SPEAKER_01: 40:06

You're in energy with money, you're not in control of money. And as soon as it took me a while to figure this out. And then once I heard it, I was like, how do I get in energy with money? And then I just it just happened. And I still haven't like wrote down the blueprint for how to be in energy with money, and just so happened. Like, if I wanted to sell something on marketplace, it will be sold in an hour. Whereas I can see the same thing as somebody else be put up on marketplace, for example, and it's up there for two weeks. I'm like, maybe it's the energy behind it. I don't know. But I just know what happens when I put something up.

SPEAKER_02: 40:51

People are like, I'm here. I'm like, all right, be good.

SPEAKER_00: 40:56

And and that's beautiful. That's uh just so beautiful. And then that's what Taoism like says, you see money as a flow, right? Not like as an identity, like it's right. We we often attach that self-worth to income, though, like savings or achievement. I do that, I did that, I'm still doing that. You know, the Tao reminds me that identity is not fluid, it's it's really not fixed, right? Money is part of the moment of life. The current that raises and current that falls. And when you start gripping, when you stop gripping that identity with to money, and you make clearer, you make steadier and most honest financial decisions too. So that's helped me definitely shape my my idea about money and and and especially about moderation too, like the middle path between that excess and and deprivation, right? Worse after worse, Lousy warns about extremes. Too much accumulation creates fear, and he says, Too little creates instability. So the moderation isn't boring, it's actually wise.

unknown: 41:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:00

And it's that place where financial decisions become sustainable rather than dramatic. Yeah. And that's and nowism has definitely taught me that. And obviously, wu wei, which is like non-forcing, financial planning from fear, it always produces overcorrection. Like we we over save, we overspend, we overwork. And wu we doesn't mean do nothing. It just means act in harmony with what is actually happening. And when you act from exactly, exactly. When you when you act from that place um of of of clarity, everything works out for you. It's it's just that having that trust that you are aligned, you are in alignment with the divine now.

SPEAKER_01: 42:49

This is so uh scientifically proven as well, and not just as a theory or as a theology or as uh spiritual enactment. There's so much science related to this that it's not a woo thing, you know, it's not just you uh hold crystals or you wear the crystals. No, I'm I'm saying like it's becoming a more prevalent in science-backed theories and science-backed articles, how you regulate with a nervous system, and they're able to now tap deeper into the middle of the brain where they have never been able to before. And they're able to notice how when you are in this ebb and flow and this ease and calm, your pineal gland is the one that's actually in charge versus when you're not, you're thinking in the back part of your brain, and that's all fear-based. That's where we call the ego, right? And that term kind of gets thrown around, and it gets thrown around. all in songs and everywhere you want to turn. But that is where that comes from, is the backside. And that's what we've been so used to thinking with because that's what you know in the United States and like how we perceive the world is through what? Media.

unknown: 44:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 44:22

Which is absolute garbage.

SPEAKER_01: 44:24

Exactly. I'm sorry to say fear based. It's all about fear. Or or you um are so scared to do the wrong thing because you might go to hell or whatever. And I'm like that's not that is not what that means. That's not what that means at all. It's trying to decide like are you going to live in your highest vibration and see what's around you in your greatest good or are you going to choose to see only the negative aspects that's still presented in the exact same way in the exact same opportunity at the exact moment in time. What is your choice of perception? Are you living in a heaven or are you living in a hell? And where are you? Such a beautiful beautiful question.

SPEAKER_00: 45:17

Gosh you really I think you opened my third eye that's hilarious. But uh it is right there like with your people collected No it's such a beautiful question Rachel because I I was I was thinking about this right the other day that the Dao Teaching may be um 2500 years old but when when you read it right through the lens of today's political and social climate it it just feels almost tightly relevant. Yeah. What Lousey saw then is exactly what we are living right now. And the wisdom he offered speaks directly to that tension division and that intensity that we're experiencing as a society. And one of the core teachings of the Tao is that when we lose our connection to the way we begin to overcorrect ourselves. We start creating more rules more moral declarations and more virtue signaling like not because society is becoming more virtuous right but because we feel the absence of that natural harmony and and that's why Lao Tzi says when when the Tao is forgotten moral righteousness appears and when wisdom is is performed and pretense follows when harmony dissolves loyalty and duty must be enforced and tell me that isn't what we're seeing today. Oh it is hands down we see that we're seeing that very much well like right now in our country but it's been seen in so many other countries at the same time even over the past 20 40 50 hundred years and we can we've not learned from any other country you know we're like we'll experience it ourselves and we're like but don't the whole point is to learn now you that we are living in a world where where morality is is loudly declared right but laire rarely embodied where the intelligence is celebrated but but wisdom where is the wisdom there right where where social unity is is preached but true connection just feels fragmented. And Tao just helps us understand why right that's why it says when when that natural balance is lost the artificial balance is is loudly demanded and what the Tao teaching offers is not a political stance but it's it's just a way of seeing it reminds us that the real change never comes from force aggression or moral superiority. It comes from alignment from leaders and individuals who are grounded humble and connected to something deeper than their own opinions.

SPEAKER_01: 48:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 48:11

And then Lausy warns against rulers who control too much, speak too much, interfere too much that the best leaders are the ones who who create the conditions for people to thrive on their own and leaders who are almost invisible because they empower rather than impose. And imagine what that kind of a leadership would look like today the DAO is also offering something so powerful for all of us not just as leaders it it reminds us to soften, to listen to to question our certainty to to recognize that the shared humanity instead of like clinging in our in our divisions to remember that the more we push the more resistance we we create and the Tao doesn't give us political answers it it just gives us that inner portion better answers just arise naturally. So how does the Tao speak to that current climate right it it reminds us that the chaos that we see is is not new and it's and we also know that it's not permanent. We know that it is going to change when there's a yin there is um the yang so it shows that the louder the world becomes the more important it is to to also return to that quiet. It it calls us back to humility that presence and the wisdom of moving with our life rather than than against it. And in many ways Tao Teaching isn't like commenting on politics but it's just offering a path back to sanity. Yeah so it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 49:44

I agree I mean one of the uh affirmations I read this week with um it's a rage create desk calendar and it's actually in the show notes but interesting I hope I get this right it was peace the peace sign I can peace in and peace out but be peace all throughout that's what it read I hope I didn't butcher then I probably did but it doesn't matter because no it's beautiful but it was so it hit me hard on that day because I was in the middle of a a mild crisis with one of my projects and I was like I'm just gonna treat this peacefully and I'm gonna be here with peace inside this project and without and if it happens it to happen if we have to go out of them whatever to be with you and also with you. I don't know that is that is really funny if there's one thing we can leave with our listeners today what would it be from Prashanti Okay so maybe um I'll I'll teach a small technique.

SPEAKER_00: 51:06

It's it's a small way to begin working with with paradox like just one simple daily ritual that recently um just came to me and and something that I call the the pause of two truths. It takes less than a minute and it helps train the mind to hold opposites without collapsing into overwhelm. And here's how it works. Whenever you feel pulled pressured or uncertain just just pause and ask yourself what are the two truths that are both real in this moment. For example I'm nervous and I'm also capable I want clarity and I'm allowed to not know yet feel stretched and I'm I'm I'm still supported what this does is soften the instinct to choose one narrative or another it shifts you out of this this rigid either or mindset and to this spacious both and perspective where our paradox just naturally lives. And the beauty of this ritual is that it doesn't require meditation cushions or journals or perfect morning routine. You can practice it while washing dishes, waiting at a red light or preparing for a difficult conversation and over time the nervous system like learns something important that opposing truths aren't threats but they're invitations invitations to hold complexity with a little more grace and to hold our with a little more compassion and that to me is the essence of a paradox friendly mind. That is so beautiful that's awesome I bet you have a very strong relationship with your partner for being able to notice that I mean that takes a lot of humility to understand that there are two truths to every situation because again we get into that like ego-minded fear-based restriction and the rigidity that you spoke of so eloquently thank you Rachel thank you so much and and this is the paradox that I'm living right now is is right the the dance between stepping forward and and just letting go I'm sharing my work more publicly than ever before my book my reflections on the Tao my own spiritual journey and and and these podcasts that I'm I'm working with Rachel and and that requires visibility and visibility has never been my natural comfort zone. It it asks me to like step forward to use my voice to be seen and at the very same time practicing something equally important, right? There's non-attachment attachment to how the work is received or how it is interpreted or whether it creates waves in the mind of people that I that that I hope for or so I'm living in this beautiful tension between expression and surrender and between offering what feels like true to me and and releasing any control over like what happens next. And some days the stepping forward just feels easier and other days letting go feels more natural. And most days they're both just happening at the same time but I'm just learning to like be present in that paradox without needing it to resolve it it's a tender place and and it's also an expansive one and it is teaching me in real time that Tao always teaches right most in the spaces where the opposites meet. So thank you very, very much for having me here today. I I really appreciate the space that you've created um for people like me, the ordinary people who have walked an inner journey and and feel called to give a voice to something we've just discovered along the way I'm not a scholar or a monk or I'm not someone who who set out to be an expert right I'm I'm simply a person who just encountered Tao at a moment of a deep transformation and and it just changed the entire texture of my life Rachel and to be able to share even a small part of my experience here in this forum is is a true honor, Rachel. So thank you for opening this platform for inviting these beautiful conversations questions that never been asked in and you you've asked me those amazing questions I'm so glad we had it as it's a beautiful natural discussion between two friends. It just felt I felt that so I'm very very grateful to be here Rachel and likewise and I want to ask one question where can we find your book and is it on Amazon your Instagram where can we find you absolutely right now the book is available on Amazon in paperback and hardcover I don't feel called to release a digital version yet there is something about holding the physical book flipping to like a random page and and letting that verse meet you where you are actually feels very important to this project.

SPEAKER_01: 56:12

It's so funny I call it a project yeah because it is because at the end of the day you're your most important project and I will say that again all day long oh my gosh that's why we are sisters Rachel we understand it exactly exactly that is so you're such a gym and it is truly an honor to have you and have this be another modality to look within to find what makes you in the business of you what makes you so where you want to make sure you have your project as beautiful as it can be and that's really all I'm trying to do at the end of the day with this podcast is to open our eyes and look back at us and like mirror, look in the mirror and you are your most important project like saying that every single morning because you can look around and everything is so beautiful from there. So like to receive it and take it in is just a gift every day.

SPEAKER_00: 57:19

So yeah but thank you for that's the main character energy Rachel thank you and you give that you give that vibe to me and I I love that oh thanks thanks that's what a success looks like to me all right so this is what I've got for you today.

SPEAKER_01: 57:41

If something clicked don't just nod and move on let's integrate it act on it share it and if you're ready for this work in real time let's come to a retreat. Come breathe with us come regulate your system and expand your life or better yet let's link up let's get yourself on my calendar let's talk for 30 minutes see where it is you can make your next step and I'm more than happy to help you understand exactly where you need to be everything is linked below. So let's bring this in let's bring in our session bring in the hands to the heart and let's end it together just like we always know how with an ohm after an inhale let's take it in till next time own your time regulate your energy and remember you are your most important project